An in-depth interview with Todd Williams, Democratic candidate for District Attorney, about priorities, the role of law enforcement and more.
District Attorney is arguably the most powerful single local elected position, overseeing prosecution and exercising a great deal of discretion over how the law is enforced. In this year’s Democratic primary Todd Williams, a defense attorney, defeated long-time District Attorney Ron Moore. Then a petition drive put Ben Scales, a local attorney active in the push for marijuana legalization, on the ballot as an independent. The race has already seen some heated controversies, and early voting begins Oct. 23.
Due to the importance of the position, the Asheville Blade is running in-depth interviews with both candidates about their backgrounds, beliefs about how the District Attorney should carry out their duties, what changes they would make and more. This is the interview with Williams. The interview with Scales is here.
David Forbes, Asheville Blade: How did you get into law?
Todd Williams: I went to law school in 1996, but prior to that I guess what got me interested in law was a program called Literacy for the Homeless, through a community college in the Piedmont of North Carolina. A lot of the folks needed help with their day-to-day relationships with their landlords or filling out their taxes or domestic violence or sundry property law issues that homeless people have. I got interested in going to law school because I got connected with someone at North State Legal Services in Hillsboro.
Backing up, my grandfather probably planted the seed when I was a little kid, saying I was a researcher and I liked to look things up, I liked to have the right answer. He felt the law would be a good profession. But it wasn’t until I saw it demonstrated to me that I didn’t have to be an ambulance chaser, that I could be the kind of lawyer that fit my own personality that I elected to explore going to law school, so I did that after doing a stint at the community college as a teacher.
As a lawyer, what’s been your experience, especially in Asheville?
Legal aid was part the inspiration for going to law school, so I tried that out for a bit after law school. Then I went into private practice in Boone and I just got to the point where Boone wasn’t a good fit for me. Asheville was a real draw for me, so I moved to Asheville and was fortunate to find a spot in the public defenders’ office.
Throughout law school, I was intrigued with criminal law. You don’t have majors in law school, but I had sort of a dual major in employment discrimination, labor law and criminal law. I think when I got out, my bias was to try to pursue something in employment law, but I sort of feel that I was led to this opportunity here in Asheville. I started as a public defender in 2001 and that was the story until February of 2010, when I left to become the senior public defender in District 29B which is Henderson, Transylvania and Polk counties. I was there until August of 2012 and was with the capital defender until 2014. Since February 2014 I’ve been practicing private law.
Over here in the public defender’s office I started out with misdemeanors, started out in juvenile court, started out doing involuntary commitments and pretty much just worked my way up. I had my first homicide in 2004 — we were able to plead that to involuntary manslaughter down from 2nd-degree — and had 30 to 40 jury trials. All those jury trials ranged from assault on a female up to murder. When you’re looking at murder charges, you do whatever you can, when you can. I just had my first murder trial. Nothing was offered, we were looking at life without parole and my client elected to try it. He should be very happy with the result, which was a second-degree verdict. That was my first murder trial as a defense lawyer. Anyway, that’s my complete resume.
From that experience, what led you to run for DA?
I’ve been thinking about that for a long time. One of the things you observe when you’re working with the office that we have is that there’s a really strong hierarchical culture over here. That can be good, but if it is so overbearing that it becomes a problem in working a docket it can be a restraint on the administration of justice.
So that’s a day-by-day issue, and I feel like it’s a very natural progression from what I’ve done. I’ve progressed through all levels of the system. I’ve seen it from the defense side, yes, but my experience is somewhat different from someone who’s engaged in the private practice of law. As a public defender for all those years you take the cases that you get, it’s a random sample, so there’s no area of law that has not been uncovered. To me, it’s attractive, because I feel I can serve our community in a different way.
My wife is a therapist, she has a clientele that has experienced a lot of trauma. I have a daughter. It’s something that’s grown as a desire to do. I feel I have the knowledge and the competence to do it. Do I know everything? No, I’m going to learn news things, surely.
But I will bring a new perspective to the office, from the other side of the courtroom, that can anticipate a lot of things that are lost on folks that have only done it one way for many years.
By the same token, I’m not going to come into the job with the attitude of “hey, I know it all.” I hope that will be a positive for the assistant [district attorneys] over there.
The district attorney has a number of duties — many duties — but it’s also a powerful position with a lot of broad discretion. How do you see that balance, especially in dealing with the application of laws you might consider just or unjust?
Well the district attorney is duty-bound to enforce the law — it’s part of the oath — and I really feel, as much as possible, personal views about the law should not intrude upon the administration of justice. I might have a certain feeling, say, about the speed limit on each road, that’s it too low or too high or whatever. But if that’s what’s set by Council, or whatever entity, the law should be enforced.
Now, the law should also be somewhat responsive to community standards, so that’s a general outline of my feeling.
Can you give an example of what “responsive to community standards” would mean?
A D.A. is obligated to do justice. One of the examples, to use speeding again, is the man who runs a stop sign driving his wife to the hospital and he’s given a ticket. There, it’s using common sense and discretion when there’s no great harm to society or the wrongdoer has made amends or made restitution to earn a dismissal or reduction or whatever, so that there’s some equity in the relief that’s granted to the defendant. I don’t know if I have a specific example.
What do you see as the differences between you and the outgoing DA, Ron Moore?
I’ve already described some of that. I have a different personality. I can’t quite say I’m a different generation. I think he’s about 10-13 years older than me, but I do feel that I circulate in a different social milieu than he does here in Asheville. Like him, I’m a Democrat. I am going to aggressively enforce the law.
I hope that we will be more open and that means that I hope the assistants in the office will feel empowered to use their discretion to a greater degree. There are a lot of really smart, intelligent assistants in the office who are fearful of exercising discretion.
Because of that hierarchical culture you mentioned?
Yeah. There is going to be a certain degree of hierarchy to maintain some order, but my impression and the impression of many is that’s what in place right now is a strong form of hierarchy. I hear stories that a lot of younger assistants feel that they need to have their choices ok’d prior to the exercise of their discretion. I hope that we can work toward a more law firm-style culture where there’s an atmosphere of trust and when a mistake is made, it’s viewed as part of a learning process. That there is some leeway for mistake-making. We’re not always going to get everything right, but we will always try to do justice.
Your website has your endorsements, your experience and of course it has some of the innocence commission information on there as well. But as a far as a specific platform, which isn’t listed, what are some specific changes you’ll bring to the DA’s office if elected?
A number of the things I talked about in the spring [primary] are in the pipeline. We talked about a Veterans’ Treatment Court. The Veterans’ Treatment Court just got $75,000 in funding. We were talking about a Child Advocacy Center — Buncombe is one of the few counties in WNC that doesn’t have a child advocacy center — a one stop therapy, investigative center. Just last week I was at a meeting where there’s ongoing discussion about applying for funds to start a child advocacy center.
So it’s in process?
Well, I think the process is deciding whether we put it in process. This is something I feel is at least partly resulting from discussions we had in the primary. Those are two things.
One of the things about my experience that I think is unique, that I don’t think I covered earlier, was that for five years I was on the drug treatment court committee. There are six specialized treatment courts in Buncombe County now. This is really a new and exciting area of our criminal justice system, where we’re getting into “rather than what can we do to David Forbes, what can we do for David Forbes so he stays on the right side of the law?” Not to personalize it.
Where appropriate, of course: we’re not going to do that for folks that are charged with murder. But folks that are charged with possession of whatever, or writing bad checks because they need money for drugs, can we break the cycle?
The exciting thing about veterans treatment court is that it’s going to bring in some psychiatrists and some social workers and some new folks that aren’t just from the substance abuse-related field. So the goal is to reduce the cost to the state and keep our community safe. Those are a couple of areas I hope we can continue to grow.
Those are programs, those are ideas we’re talking about for six months now.
What do you see as the differences in administration if you’re elected versus the differences if your opponent, Ben Scales, is elected?
I really haven’t thought about that so much. I can only speak about me. I feel I have the respect and that folks in the [DA’s] office acknowledge that I’m a knowledgeable person throughout the breadth of criminal law. I’ve conducted myself in a way that I believe is professional and I’ve got good relations with the folks in the office.
I feel that because I have the competence that I do and the knowledge of the law, I’m not just going to be somebody who is looking for guidance. But I’ll also be reaching out to others in the office for input.
I think we should have a collegial environment in the DA’s office; not everybody has all the answers. I really don’t want to speculate how the office will look under my opponent.
Moving onto one of the bigger controversies to come up in this campaign so far, which was your statement — at the recent debate — on victimless crimes, explain how that happened and what point you were trying to make?
It just came out wrong. [Mountain Xpress reporter] Jake Frankel was there and he wrote up a fair accounting of the debate.
In hindsight now I’ve seen the statement and I didn’t need to phrase it that way, so it came out wrong.
This is my answer: “victimless crime” is not my term. The DA is charged with prosecuting crime as defined by the legislature. Law enforcement is law enforcement and the crimes that are included in the general statutes are there to address — and provide redress — to victims.
But they’re also there to prevent victimization. So in the question, I’ve posited some examples where law enforcement intervenes before someone has injured, such as a DUI. That’s what was intended.
Nowhere on my website or Facebook page until I made the error have we included the term “victimless crime” anywhere.
As the DA, in prioritizing resources and exercising discretion, what would be your approach to nonviolent drug offenses?
Nonviolent drug offenses can range from the marijuana piece, which is obviously the focus of my opponent’s campaign, all the way up to more dangerous drugs like meth and heroin.
Heroin is the real problem now. We have people that get started on pills and they bridge into heroin which is cheaper than oxycodone and they’re self-administering and they overdose and then they’re dead. A “victimless crime,” you know, with air quotes, but it’s a real problem for our community, it hurts families.
Those are the more serious crimes. I want to be careful about what I say, but there’s not going to be any special focus on marijuana under a Todd Williams administration.
We are very likely coming close to the time when the legislature should be strongly encouraged to look at the reform of our marijuana laws. Should they do that, I would support reform.
Right now a half-ounce [of marijuana] is a Class 3 misdemeanor, so we’re not really talking about anything more than a fine. I don’t think the present DA is interested in going out of one’s way to prosecute those. I don’t think the law enforcement community is going out of its way to enforce those.
There’s no jack-booted thugs kicking in doors to fine folks who are sitting around the TV and consuming marijuana in the privacy of their dens. That’s not the reality.
I have no special focus on marijuana in terms of prioritization. We have a schedule set out in Chapter 90 [of the general statutes], so I think we have a natural, scheduled system for how we prioritize those offense. Obviously a schedule one is going to carry a greater penalty and that’s going to end up in Superior Court, more resources are naturally going to be devoted to the prosecution of those crimes than a schedule six. Unless we’re talking about a tractor trailer coming in from Mexico full of a schedule six controlled substance, it’s probably a fairly low priority.
Some of the biggest decisions a DA can deal with are decisions around the death penalty. What’s your belief, especially coming from a defense background, about the death penalty?
It’s in our law. As District Attorney, I’ll be duty bound to enforce the law. The death penalty is a tool that will be used by my administration to enforce the law. But it will be responsive to community standards. I think we’ve had one death penalty prosecution in the last 15 years and the way I think that turned out was that the jury came back with second-degree. That’s a jury trial, of course, I think others have been charged with the death penalty and they’ve been negotiated down to life without parole in pleas.
I want to be careful. I don’t want to take the teeth out of it by saying I’ll use it any certain way, but if there’s a community response that warrants a prosecution, through a jury trial in a death case, that’s on the table.
You’ve mentioned bringing in defense attorney’s perspective. One of the criticisms that’s been leveled at that is that it might unbalance the role of the prosecution or have trouble working with law enforcement. What’s your response to that criticism?
Who’s the top endorsement that I have on my page? It’s [Buncombe County Sheriff] Van Duncan. I talked to Van today. I talked to Van yesterday. I get along fine with law enforcement. I always have.
Some defense attorneys do like to point fingers and get in officers faces. I’ve always sort of gone with a “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” That bombastic approach is a little more old school.
I don’t think I’ve burned any bridges with law enforcement having been a defense attorney for years. Ron Moore was a defense attorney before he was a prosecutor. [District Attorney] Greg Newman down in [prosecutorial district] 29B was a defense attorney before he was a prosecutor. Brad Green in 29A was a defense attorney before he was a prosecutor. It’s not unheard of by any means for a defense attorney to jump into the role of prosecutor. I just look forward to working with these guys in a different way than I have in the past.
You’ve mentioned before that one of your big issues with Moore’s office was a lack of transparency, specifically around the evidence room audit issues. What specific steps will you take to ensure more transparency in the District Attorney’s office if you’re elected?
That’s not entirely formed in my mind. What I do want to do is continue to get out in the community, make myself available for feedback. I don’t want to become siloed. I don’t know if I’ll have monthly lunches or maybe we’ll have courthouse forums, I’d have to talk to the Clerk of Court and some others over there and see what they’re comfortable with, but that’s one way.
In regards to the evidence room — and I don’t absolutely know this wasn’t explored — I always kind of wondered: was it absolutely necessary that [the audit] go under seal? Could it have been possible that the defense attorney in consultation with his client, could have waived any objection to the release of that, which would have avoided litigation. I don’t know how much of those volumes was relevant to the sentencing of [former evidence room manager] Lee Smith.
Instead it seemed to be “this is our rule and we’re not exploring any other options.” Some other options could have been explored.
On the topic of violent crime, some of the criticisms around the current DA’s office involve the handling — or lack of longer sentences — in cases involving rape, domestic violence and child abuse. How would you change the office’s approach, if any change, to handling these cases?
I will have someone in place who’s going to specialize in child and sex abuse cases. That will be their caseload and that will be their focus. Other [attorneys] will come in to support when needed in major cases so that these cases will be moved through the system aggressively.
Do you feel minority communities have been treated fairly by the local justice system? What would you change in your office’s approach, if elected?
In my view one of the things that has impacted the minority community to a great degree is the habitual felon law. I think Buncombe County — and maybe another county or two — are the most egregious examples of the application of the habitual felon law, where almost anyone eligible for it was prosecuted [as a habitual felon].
In Asheville I think we’re going to have a big debt to pay. From 1991 to when the Republican legislature modified the habitual felon law and changed the habitual felon sentencing enhancement from any felony to a Class C felony, which is first-degree kidnapping, first-degree arson, second-degree rape.
But I’ve seen a $16 pair of shoes that were shoplifted and returned for cash under false pretenses prosecuted [as a habitual felon case] which then becomes a $50,000 housing cost to the taxpayers of North Carolina. Somebody who has a drug problem goes off for eight years, the family is without a bread-winner. The gentleman — or whomever — gets out after eight years and returns back to the community and has no resources, there’s no pathway for re-entry.
I think Asheville’s been hit pretty hard. I’ve spent a lot of time down in Hillcrest, Pisgah View, Shiloh and other places. Folks are very ready for change. I think they, perhaps better than many, understand the new perspective I’ll bring. Having been a public defender I understand how folks get in situations that lead to poor choices.
I think our larger community has grown tired of the steady drip of folks who are incarcerated for long periods of time then released and declared innocent because there’s been a rush to judgement.
Specifically, how would the application of the habitual felon law change under your administration?
The long terms that people expect prisoners to go to prison on generally involve some component of violence, like “I’m going to take something from you by shoving a gun in your face” not just “hey, this is the third time I’ve possessed a crack rock.” If there’s not that component of disrespect for someone’s rights, in terms of their physical safety, I think that’s the dividing line.
—
The Asheville Blade is entirely funded by its readers. If you like our work, donate directly to us on Patreon. Questions? Comments? Email us.